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Galadruin the Dwarf
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re: Paladin thread patch 4.0.1

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So having had a quick bash at heal in the weekly, I have a couple of questions.

We have 6 heals now. 6!!!!!

HL is our bread and butter heal, and mine is at 2 second cast time, same as Divine light.

What do you make of Mastery, is it worth reforging haste/crit/spirit for it?

It looks funky to me with shields, and I am not sure how good haste/crit is in comparrison.

answers on a post card please


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Galadruin the Dwarf
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re: Paladin thread patch 4.0.1

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So after last nights proper run I have come to the conclusion Holy Pallys are a bit broke!

No longer a tank healer, and never a raid healer it seems we are sort of a space filler.

From what I could work out the "rotation" should be.

Holy Shock on all CD
Use HL on the beconed target to generate holy power
On daybreak, Holy Shock twice
Fianly at 3 holy power Word of Glory.

Mana regen sucks ballz
And I think the scaling for Sp on heals is low, and the mastery seems pointless if you have a disc priest.

One can only hope that either the niche for tank healing gets restored, or the mana/scaling issues get better.

The AoE heal is just shit


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Toofles the Great

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re: Paladin thread patch 4.0.1

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HEEHEE
Same as I thought hunters were. Until I tried a proper rotation and stuff :\ Broke, but not that much :p
At least you, palas, have less mana than druids :p


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Galadruin the Dwarf
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re: Paladin thread patch 4.0.1

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one can only hope it is balanced arounfd 85.

I think it's mostly a lot going on with watching for this proc that proc and smacking the buttons, and means no slacking watching telly on raids.
Maybe if scaling was bette, and the throughput more in line with the other classes it would be worth it.

overall it's a lot to do to be half as effective as a shaman spamming chain heal....


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Galadruin the Dwarf
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re: Paladin thread patch 4.0.1

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From my mate who is giving me pro-tips

Allow me to critique : )
Well your spec is a bit sucky tbh.You have a 2 pt talent to get hit from spirit and add range to our judgements (this sucks) and miss the 3 pt talent in ret to make our holy shocks go BOOOM.Also your glyphs were wrong but it was late when i checked and cant remember which ones.
Sort spec for WoG and HS stuff asap.

The aim of the game is to heal the beacon and generate holy power for free WoG's.Holy shock is to be used on cooldown .
Flash or Divine the beacon and use your instants on the raid if needed.Dont wait for them just heal the raid with them.
Judge every minute to keep the haste buff,no more than once a minute or its a waste.
Use the spell(20% haste etc cant remember the name) on cooldown for more throughput.
Use Wings on CD also for more throughput.
Dont bother with Divine plea unless you got mana issues and even then its a waste if your needing a little bit get yourself in a group with shaman and pop a potion.
Use Lay on hands when you need a big hit and dont try to keep it in case.

Use those cooldowns every time.Dont hold stuff in reserve.Your panic spell is now flash of light and tbh if its a quick fight its also your main spell not divine or holy.

Make sure your close to the melee so you can Light of dawn them when theres AOE damge or cleaves.(this is part of the reason you dont really want long range judgements anymore-paladins need to be in the thick of things)Melee for mana back FTW.Step back -->Light of dawn-->step back and melee.Your tier 1 holy talent heals you like a mini beacon so dont worry about extra damage from being too close.

Seal is insight.
Blessing is might.
Aura is w/e needed.
Gem and enchant for intellect.


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re: Paladin thread patch 4.0.1

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I've had a good play around with retri and one thing about it I DAM LOVE IT.

The rotation has finally been fixed and with that a dps spec that can complete with most dps classes.

Tested it on a 10 man saturday night, and its a very simply rotations, holy power is a nice add to the rotation, not too much unlike rogue combo points in a way.

For anyone that hasn't got around to checking out retri, holy power has 3 combo points to it, which can be charged via crusader strike, judgement or even just melee damage. (The combo points are displayed via a power bar under your characters unit frame)
The more holy power the more damage, there really isn't much point in using holy power at 1/2 combo's as its reduced damage, you really wanna hit it at 3 all times.
Your holy power charges are then released with 2 abilities.
Templar's verdit which is a single target attack
Or the usall devine storm for aoe
Seals are very simular to before just with different names
Seal of command is has been replaced with seal of righteousness as your aoe seal.
Seal of Truth has replaced seal of Vengeance as your single target dps.

Strength is still the best state to gem for to increase your ap.
And replace all your attack power enchants and replace with agility.
Haste then appears to be our next highest dps stat so you should look idealy for gear which contains haste.

Mastery
Looking through most the gear, expertise and hit are really to stats we could have too much off, so first you should reforge any of the gear to get you to hit cap and 16 expertise (as the seal of truth glpyh still gives 10 expertise).
After you have reforge this then reforge anything with crit on it to mastery unles the haste on the gear is alot more than the crit.

Mastery on retri basically increases the change your next attack will give you a fully charged holy power attack, whats also good about it is it doesn't reset the holy power once used if you previously had a full/half charger bar. (basically means your next 2 attacks could be 2x templer's verdit 32k crit hits).

Saurfang is my usally dps tester for ICC as a melee, I usally hit around 10k as retri on Xandina, on our HM kill saturday night I almost hit 14k, and that was on 10 man.

Its a massive increase, and the class is definantly more fun to play than it was before, and it was fun before

I'll update all glyphs tonight for any more retridins
Kovac (Flower)

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re: Paladin thread patch 4.0.1

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the theory around retri at the moment is a bit touchy
because of the lack of pure mastery gear,
eg. http://cata.wowhead.com/spell=80508

because of this, paladins can't reach the haste soft cap and get a decent amount of mastery

however, both tend to do a decent amount of dps.
BUT haste stacking (which lowers the CD on CS) which effectively gives you more holy power baseline

compared to mastery which gives you a chance of a free 3 Holy Power which is a bit....lucky dip-ish.

I've been talking with LP, Ace and Aeriss
they personally prefered Haste at that time.
but Ace I believe has a second set of gear for mastery

Of course with the new rotation there is a solid 2, 8, 2, 3, 2, 1 rotation (CS>holy wrath > CS > judgement > CS > TV) (exorcism is considered invalid because of having a proc)
but we have entered the Enhance shammy zone in that,
with a lucky proc fight we can end up with TV> TV > cs > exorcism > CS > TV > TV

and of course, popping Avenging wrath , THEN Zealotry
popping both at the same time is a DPS loss.
because of the clashing HoW and TV timing,
with skill, and enough haste. When you pop Zealotry; you can get CS>TV>CS>TV>CS>TV - with NO gaps.
and when using Wings, HoW > CS > Judgement > HoW > CS > CS > TV > HoW
with all buffs included last night my CS was a 3 second cooldown.
so it was quite tight. And on some bosses this can severly muck up.

But of course, you need a good amount of CRIT and Haste ABOVE mastery.
Without this, you are relying on procs.
of course if your lucky and it procs enough it is great.
but overall on a spreadsheet the haste soft cap is a dps increase.
when cataclysm hits, or if you (please don't) have an insane amount of hit then of course reforge to mastery / haste.
but as far as expertise goes. i find it hard to get, other than using tier legs, Lootship Ring and ToC 25 Belt, (without glyph) or my 277 legs (with glyph)
so you may be getting this expertise from AGI items.

ATM; glyph of TV, Glyph of CS and glyph of Judgement are the best combo
of course replacing Judgement with seal of truth is acceptable.
(as CS does far more dps than judgement now)

Happy
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re: Paladin thread patch 4.0.1

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Galadruin the Holy wrote:
From my mate who is giving me pro-tips

Allow me to critique : )
Well your spec is a bit sucky tbh.You have a 2 pt talent to get hit from spirit and add range to our judgements (this sucks) and miss the 3 pt talent in ret to make our holy shocks go BOOOM.Also your glyphs were wrong but it was late when i checked and cant remember which ones.
Sort spec for WoG and HS stuff asap.

The aim of the game is to heal the beacon and generate holy power for free WoG's.Holy shock is to be used on cooldown .
Flash or Divine the beacon and use your instants on the raid if needed.Dont wait for them just heal the raid with them.
Judge every minute to keep the haste buff,no more than once a minute or its a waste.
Use the spell(20% haste etc cant remember the name) on cooldown for more throughput.
Use Wings on CD also for more throughput.
Dont bother with Divine plea unless you got mana issues and even then its a waste if your needing a little bit get yourself in a group with shaman and pop a potion.
Use Lay on hands when you need a big hit and dont try to keep it in case.

Use those cooldowns every time.Dont hold stuff in reserve.Your panic spell is now flash of light and tbh if its a quick fight its also your main spell not divine or holy.

Make sure your close to the melee so you can Light of dawn them when theres AOE damge or cleaves.(this is part of the reason you dont really want long range judgements anymore-paladins need to be in the thick of things)Melee for mana back FTW.Step back -->Light of dawn-->step back and melee.Your tier 1 holy talent heals you like a mini beacon so dont worry about extra damage from being too close.

Seal is insight.
Blessing is might.
Aura is w/e needed.
Gem and enchant for intellect.



At the moment, we aint maintank healage nor raid healing wise. We are somewhere in the middle....support-class-healer, and so we will be the next 2 month untill cata comes. And that sucks tbh. We lost some really good spells/Glyphts etc.

I dont like this at all. But hey...I might just quit and come back in 2 months when cata comes. Yes, your right gala. But all the new things are for cata, all the procs etc we gotto watch for. Right now i suggest using DL and FoL, and some HS inbetween...
And our mana pool sucks, Mana recover DP sucks.

brrr.
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re: Paladin thread patch 4.0.1

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John (fowler) have you reforged any of your gear into mastery as of yet?
Everlightly

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re: Paladin thread patch 4.0.1

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fowler the paly wrote:
the theory around retri at the moment is a bit touchy
because of the lack of pure mastery gear,
eg. http://cata.wowhead.com/spell=80508

because of this, paladins can't reach the haste soft cap and get a decent amount of mastery

however, both tend to do a decent amount of dps.
BUT haste stacking (which lowers the CD on CS) which effectively gives you more holy power baseline

compared to mastery which gives you a chance of a free 3 Holy Power which is a bit....lucky dip-ish.



The set up is very simular to enhance Shamans at the moment, with a few extras throw in.

But I think it comes down to the way the player prefers aswell,
Lets throw saurfang into the mix for a moment, from saturday and friday nights.
My paladin did 13700 dps for that fight.
While fowler did 13800 if I remember rightly (i'm always checking out retri performance at the moment, as your a little better geared that Xandina).
I've reforged my gear to mastery of about 18.00, i've lowered my haste, crit and reduced my expertise and hit to as close to cap as possible.

In a 10 man raid on same boss I got very close to you in a 25 man where you may have had a few extra buffs, and my mastery procs where going off very often.
Also with using avenging wrath and zeolotry as the same time does increase dps massively, don't forget the cool down with hammer of wrath.
I was able to hit HW>CS>TV>HW>CS>TV>HW>CS>TV with out any issues as each one came off cooldown, and because of the zeolotry any left over holy power or mastery proc within the rotation was saved to the end so sometimes has a 2nd TV at the end, plus it also means the abilities can be used twice in one fight.

The mastery gear which you linked is the same with every class at the moment, there is no mastery gear, so we are only getting mastery via reforging. Might have to grab you some time after the awards for a test dummy test with the 2 of us, me with the mastery gear and you without and test which performs better
Sputtnik
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re: Paladin thread patch 4.0.1

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Found this, looks well made and prolly makes more sense to you guys then to me :p



Holy FAQ - 4.0.1!

Hi everyone! Since there hasn't yet been updated a thread on the new changes and how they will affect the holy tree in general, I will see if I can cover the basics. Any previous poster who's already linked in the "Paladin Guides & Useful Links" thread are more than welcome to copy or use any of this to update their stickied threads.

Please try and keep this thread constructive. I will update it if you find errors or additional information.
This is not a thread to complain about the current state of holy paladins, nor is it a thread you should reply to for hand holding. You can find the needed information in the sections below, so please don't post a question which has already been answered. Thanks in advance.

These subjects will be covered:

- Spells.

- Stats.

- Talents.

- Enchanting, gemming and glyphs.





1. SPELLS:

We have gotten a lot of spells in 4.0.1, and I'll just quickly run over them and give some hints as to which situations they're good for.

Holy Shock: This is your new main healing ability as it stack the new combo point system which was added to the paladin class in 4.0.1. You should aim on using this every time the cooldown wears off. It is also coupled together with some talents making it very neat.
If you get a critical hit with Holy Shock, whether it is on an enemy or friendly target, and you have the talent Infusion of Light, 1.5 seconds will be cut off your next Holy Light making it a very quick cast.
If you have the talent Daybreak, there is a chance when you cast a Divine Light, Holy Light or Flash of Light, that your next Holy Shock won't trigger a cooldown. This makes stacking of Holy Power very quick.

Flash of Light: This spell has in 4.0.1 gotten its healing done increased dramatically in the expense of costing a lot more mana. This has gone from being the small heal you could spam when no real danger was happening, to the spell you should only use in few situation such as quick large amounts of incoming damage. Be very careful not to spam this because you're used to doing so: it will run you dry of mana in no time.

Holy Light: This spell has had the opposite revamp of Flash of Light. It has gone from being an expensive large but slow heal, to a slow, small and inexpensive heal. This is a healing spell you can spam all you want without being afraid of going out of mana. However what you should be afraid of, is the tank dying. The amount it heals has been decreased a lot in the patch.

Divine Light: The new spell Divine Light is pretty much the old Holy Light. It's great for tank healing and situations where members are taking heavy amounts of damage.

Light of Dawn: This spell is Blizzard's attempt of making holy paladins more suited for raid healing, and to be honest, it is in a very poor state at the moment. The amount it heals is far from impressive considering it's our only raid healing ability at the moment, it has a long cooldown, and the fact that it's a tier 7 talent. I do believe that Blizzard intends to buff it in the next weeks though. The spell sends a wave of healing in a cone in front of you.

Word of Glory: Is the healing spell coupled with the combo point system Blizzard has implemented. It's basically an instant heal requiring no mana, and healing in accordance to the amount of Holy Power you're currently having. It's a healing spell you should always use when you have 3 Holy Power. It saves mana and heals a decent amount.

Seal of Insight: This is the new holy seal, and is basicly a merge between the old Seal of Light and Seal of Wisdom. It should always be the seal you select when healing.

Plate Specialization: This is a new passive spell paladins have gotten in this patch, and what it basically means for holy, is that if you've equipped plate items only, you will get 5% more overall intellect. This has turned around the BiS list for paladins, meaning that the ilevel 264 plate belt is actually better than the ilevel 284 mail belt you can obtain in Ruby Sanctum 25HC. The same is the case with Crypt Keeper's Bracers and Bracers of the Fiery Night.



2. STATS:

The stat priority of your holy paladin should be as following: Intellect > Haste > Spirit > Crit > Mastery

Intellect is your all in one stat as it since 4.0.1 gives Spellpower, Spell Critical Hit and Mana. You will no longer be able to obtain Spellpower in items (with the exception of your main hand), and you will therefore have to get intellect in PvP as well to obtain the needed Spellpower.

Haste is a fantastic stat for holy paladins as it allows you to great increase the speed of your heals. It will be needed in many encounters where a slow 2,5 second Divine Light can easily result in a dead tank. Haste is only beneficial to a certain point for holy paladins though, as the latency sets a softcap on the effectiveness of haste. If you have ~50ms you should be aiming to get around 750 haste. 0ms softcap is at ~1000 haste.

Spirit is the new Mana per 5 second in WoW, and almost all the plate healing gear you will meet will have spirit on it. It's a very good stat for holy paladins now, since many of the mana regeneration spell we had in the previous patch have been nerfed such as Divine Plea, Seal of Wisdom (Seal of Insight), and Judgement of Wisdom (Judgement).

Crit is the same as always, and is still one of the least sought after stats. You will get plenty of crit from the items you obtain, which means it isn't a stat you should be going for directly like in the above cases. This is mostly because your healing spell already are quite powerful and a critical hit will in most cases lead to overhealing.

Mastery is the newly implemented stat which for Holy Paladins creates a shield on the target you're healing for 8 % of the amount healed. When you obtain mastery the percentage of absorbed damage increases. This is not yet a good enough stat to overthrow any of the others. The shield is very weak and it is definantly not a stat you should be aiming for though reforging at the moment.



3. TALENTS:

There is currently a pretty standard cookie cutter spec for paladins: 31/5/0
http://www.wowhead.com/talent#scIbzrduuczhb

As I see it, there isn't room for much variation with the exception of taking Paragon of Virtue over Enlightened Judgements. Personally I prefer the security of landing a judgement every time, since I find it very important to get Judgement of the Pure of and running immediately. It all boils down to personal preference really. A reduced cooldown on Avenging Wrath means more times where you'll be able to use Divine Plea if you're having mana problems.
The reason why you shouldn't take Blessed Life is that there aren't really enough encounters in the current content which deals direct damage, for you being better of choosing that over the two other talents.

A very good idea if you're very good at always using Holy Shock when it's ready, is taking Crusade in the Protection Tree, over Divinity in the Retribution Tree.

4. ENCHANTING, GEMMING AND GLYPHS:

Enchanting:
Enchanting is pretty much as it always has been, look up the enchants available for the items you wish to enchant and prioritize according to the stats chapter above. As an example you should go for +25 intellect on your shield as intellect is you main stat and it's available as an enchant.

Gemming:
As you're probably already aware, intellect is still what you should be gemming all the way. Intellect is now a red gem (Cardinal Ruby) which will probably make a lot of your socket bonuses disappear. You should still stick to pure intellect though.
You should use Insightful Earthsiege Diamond as your meta gem, and therefore also have one Nightmare Tear in one of your sockets as it will cover the requirements for the meta. Make sure you place the Nightmare Tear intelligently to get the greatest benefit from socket bonuses!

Glyphs:
A new type of glyphs have been introduced in 4.0.1: Prime Glyphs.

Prime Glyphs for Holy: Glyph of Divine Favor, Glyph of Seal of Insight, Glyph of Holy Shock and Glyph of Words of Glory. The BOLD ones are the ones I suggest you take. The reason I've not chosen to leave Glyph of Holy Shock out, is that it's simply not a good enough upgrade compared to the others. Yes, Holy Shock is our main spell, but 5% extra critical chance is hardly a great improvement and won't be any where near as beneficial as the others.

Major Glyphs for Holy: Glyph of Light of Dawn, Glyph of Beacon of Light, Glyph of Divine Plea, Glyph of Divinity, Glyph of the Long Word. The choice for me here was mostly between Glyph of Divine Plea and Glyph of Divinity. I decided to go with Glyph of Divine Plea though, since it's a much more reliable source of incoming mana than Lay on Hands. Some might argue that Glyph of the Long Word is the best options, as it makes Word of Glory less overhealing capable, and I could agree to that. I think this again comes down to personal preference.

Minor Glyphs for Holy: The only glyph having any real connections to holy is Glyph of Lay on Hands, which you should definantly have.


Copied from this post: http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=14870146785&sid=1


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re: Paladin thread patch 4.0.1

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ok, reading all that my paladin is offical retiring from healing and going protection
Galadruin the Dwarf
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re: Paladin thread patch 4.0.1

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more detail from my pro mate

Its early days but ive seen QQ big time about how OP palas are.I expect a nerf if im honest.
Holy shock is so OP and has so much tied with it,theres a thread about palas in WG taking a flag solo with 7 guys beating on them,also shockadin specs in pvp are going bananas.
In PVE were a mixed bag but certainly not terribad.Light of dawn i think is a bit lame but if you use it when heavy aoe its a winner.
Use those cooldowns EVERY chance you get and your throughput will shoot up.
In a heroic im getting like i say 6k HPS all the time no cooldowns/light of dawn and never drop below 95% mana while also doing some dps.In a raid environment id be expecting at least 3k more HPS.Resto druids can crank out 9-11k HPS if last nights ICC is a good benchmark.Shamans were doing 6k ish.Were not in a bad spot but we do need to change how we do stuff.

Palas stand in the melee defo and melee the target for mana,also crusader strike for more holy power/mana as well.

Its what makes them unique now.They were so OP before,ive done ICC 10's and done 70% of healing done on some fights and usually 40% of every fight minimum.

I got to say though this new patch has made the game way better its just shame its no been balanced around level 80.As the game moves on the style of healing im using and advocating with free/cheap heals will defo be the way forward as mana becomes tight and your 1000 haste wont be worth diddly when you dinged 85 and its worth like 3% or silly amounts.Ive heard level 81 onwards mana gets tight as hell.

Best get used to it now imo.

Also you NEED to pick up the cleansing talent or you cant remove magic effects.
I think its 31/2/3(2 in WoG talent in prot 3 in Holy Shock in ret tree)


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Kovac (Flower)

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re: Paladin thread patch 4.0.1

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I can see where your coming from for mastery,
but purely I can't see how you can afford the amount of reforging,
it might be because my retri gear was very well balanced before this.
hit capped, expertise capped, high crit, 600ish haste
but now, I can't afford to reforge

as for Saurfang i was doing well over 16k dps,
as i was 2nd on damage uptill 9% when i bubbled because i was marked Happy

you difference in GCD to me maybe based on our haste deficit.
my haste is at about 800
with 2% extra mastery (which lowered me to just over hit cap)
can i ask what your crit is?
mines 35.95% unbuffed at the moment.
27% with bryntroll

and i still don't feel like i crit enough.
if i reduced all the haste on my gear, and switched it into mastery,
i may be in the same boat as you.
there's just no real solid stat weight.
its Very annoying.
as now i need to pretty much change alot of gear. (heroic gunship ones would be nice)


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re: Paladin thread patch 4.0.1

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Some good news it seems! http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=14989671151&sid=1


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